The Lamb Pen
General Category => All Sheep and Lamb Discussion => : shadowran December 24, 2016, 08:17:00 AM
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I am seriously thinking about it and the benefits I see are
1 introducing new genetics that I couldn't afford any other way
2 not buying another ram when I don't need one
3 possibly getting some real good ewe lambs and a real good ram lamb
4 moving my flock fowrd a little faster
drawbacks are
1. taking a chance on conception rate
2 can I afford it?
3 travel to location I used to not worry about this but ith my health being as bad as it is I kinda to have to
what are your thoughts on it?
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We have a small flock and can't afford to buy a ram every couple of years so we have been lai Inc our ewes and have made huge leaps forward in our breeding program I would talk to some of the techs I know glen Erickson and Tyson rule travel quiet a bit for breeding if they can coordinate you into there schedule it is still very cost effective to have them breed at your farm
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Pro - access to some trendy rams without having lots of cash.
Also, if the ram does not work out you are out a few lambs without being out a very expensive ram.
Con- still need a good cleanup ram.
LAI has helped me tremendously in my efforts to better my flock
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The upsides are endless,as long as you dont fall into commom pitfalls..
Its not as easy as sticking in some cidrs. Your feeding program has to be super. Any short fall, will lead to dissapointment
Not every lamb born,is a keeper. I have oppotunity to see a lot of ai and et lambs in my area. I see hundreds sell at severe discount to run of the mill feedlot type lambs, at sale barn every year.
It takes a STUD EWE to produce a STUD RAM
The more crossed up your ewes are, the less likley a crossed up ram, is going
to make any great ones
That being said, some very good rams are available. But
Figure 300 plus per for semen, drugs and breeding. 50 percent success with frozen
10 ewes. 3 thousand. And may get nothing. Most can buy a flock changing ram for that and get 3 or 4 years oit of him.
Points to ponder.
ET WORK. Have seen 1 average sheep, come out of 10 k of work.
As long as the money is "fun money" and not going to hurt, if all lost. Great.
I have donors and recipts.
I budget some every year. Will be looking for semen on 2 specif rams. For et in 17. Semen ,drugs and work will run 2 k.
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Merry Christmas!
I think that Shane's numbers are pretty much spot on, and I certainly don't doubt that he and others have improved their flocks with LAI. I haven't done it, because I've felt that the money I would spend on LAI could be better spent on other management. For example, three years ago we had a drought that had us feeding two years of hay in one year. I revoked a bunch of scholarships that year and saved a bunch of ewe lambs out of the ewes I kept, with the result that my average ewe age dropped- a lot. As a bonus, those saved ewe lambs are all at least half sisters and have been a real plus genetically. That cost something in terms of feed and lost sales of a half dozen ewe lambs, but it's the best money I've spent on sheep.
Most people I see doing LAI, and I mean no disrespect to those of you here using it, would be better off spending some extra coin on a stud ram, or on feeding and flushing their ewe flock to advance and shorten their lambing window, or on facilities to improve overall flock health and ease of handling, or on culling harder to improve consistency and predictability. I see a lot of folks with <20 ewes chasing the LAI or ET deal, and it seems like what they wind up with is half their ewes bred, and the rest either screwed up from hormones and procedures or lambing a month after they need to for sales or show.
Again, I absolutely believe that lots of people have used LAI as a way to move their flocks forward, and I believe those here among them. I can certainly see the opportunity it presents, if everything goes right.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
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as far as the back up ram to cover ewes that didn't settle with LAI I have a good one that's putting real good lambs on the ground for me, like I said I am kicking around the ideal around I think it would be a great way to introduce new genetics into my flock without bringing on some one else problems, also the person I am thinking about going with has a higher conception rate than others and is lot cheaper by half or more
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PHIL, I Concur. I have never Ai any yet. My et foray, has been with ewes/rams I own or leased. I KNOW he put em in there
From a money standpoint, I. Could lease a ram, and ensure lambs. And my et work is. With a ewe. That has produced county, district, state and national winners. With natural service sires, in mutiple years, with differnt sires. The sire has produced same, and bought him, used him, and sold him.
A little more likely to produce one.
Like you, I have a developed a consistant set of ewe families. I have always belived in the power of maternal strenght. And as I mature,I do not stray from my bloodlines or my breeding plans. I would likely lease a ram for some coin,before AI to most of the BF rams out there.I will try to secire some semem on 2 specif Dorset rams.
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Good luck Jim. Your feeding program for at least 3 months prior to breeding, has to be flawless.Including minerals.immunizations as well.
And your semen has to be good. The people that did my et work,rejected a lot of frozen semen , people had bought and wanted to use.
Dead semen ,will not settle ewes
If your working a deal on fresh,Odds are much better. The tech is only as good as what he has to work with.
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I also agree with Shane feed and mineral program has to be spot on for success and I have had many just average lambs out of ai as well but have only saved ewe lambs the were top notch I have gotten 3 to 5 super good ewe lambs each year but have had equil just average ones that being said I am now ai ing keeps this year and hoping for more keeper ewes only the good lord knows but have had a little extra money each year so figured it would be fun trying new genetics but agree with Shane don't go into this thinking it will create super stars out of every lamb and merry Christmas to all of you
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I have used Viking Genetics for two consecutive years. May 2015 breeding gave me 4 of 4 pregnant with frozen semen. May 2016 gave me 5 of 6 pregnant with frozen semen. Terry Knudsen uses Dr. Tad Thompson for the LAI work.
Four days later in May 2016 I took 4 ewes to Rule's LAI clinic. None of the four conceived.
My protocol was the same for both clinics. Ewes were fed and handled the same. Is it a gamble? Yes it is. But I'm willing to gamble with Viking because the odds are obviously in my favor. The conception rate that I got was excellent. 90% average between Vikings two clinics.
I'll be breeding again to his ram base when the clinic is held at Modesto Junior College in May 2017.
I spoke to Terry last week. He's is running a fantastic price for all his rams. Frozen semen is $100 per straw. The insemination cost was about $50 last year. I'd suggest that anyone who is interested in breeding to some really fantastic rams for a very reasonable price contact Terry. You can reach him at 812-871-5700.
What I really like about him is that he is easy to reach by phone and very willing to talk. Even though I only breed a small number of ewes he still treats me like I am important. Nice.
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Jim, I used LAI two years ago and have a really nice set of keeper ewes out of that. Sold a few nice wethers, didn't get a keeper ram. Last year we didn't use it as I'd bought a new buck. This year we also didn't use LAI as I bought another new ram. This coming year I plan to use LAI again. Penciling out the cost of the rams I want, I think it's going to be cheaper to at least use LAI every other year if not every year. Most of the lambs that won the shows we sold lambs at were bred by LAI or from the farms that supplied those studs. It's been proven in other species if you don't use AI and your competition does, your not going to be a player for long.
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Don, I would suggest that if your lambs, produced by your live cover rams, are not winning, your live cover rams are not good enough. I am reading,that your AI lambs win, and your live cover lambs are being beaten by AI lambs.
That suggests to me ,perhaps a different live cover ram is needed. I am not knocking any of your sheep,or your ram selecting skills.
That being said,many "live cover" rams ,never produce anything of merit. I have said that for many years. And many of the AI ram options are superior rams. Their is no question if that.
I think any progressive program ,will be using et or AI or both.
I tend to concur,that most of my "ram money" will likely be budgeted this way. I can not afford the rams I need ,any other way. At this point ,it is more cost effective to add superior ewes, and purchase rams in a tube. And many of these crossbred rams ,are not going to produce predictable results anyway.
My observation,is the top level breeders ,and feeders, simply have a better "eye" as to what makes those superior lambs.
And technology ,will never replace that. They also are superior feeders and managers. And most have facilities that are out if the reach of most of us.
I am not telling anyone not to use ,or to use these options.
It's buyer beware, do your homework, follow directions, attention to detail. All things, many sheep producers ,do not do well.
In the area of LAI and ET, look at how the programs that are making it work, are managed. Two of my friends, have watched me work through my second attempt. Both want to try. And neither will attempt it themselves.The attention to detail, and time sensitive nature is a commitment,that both know would not work for them.
At least 2 firms , doing this work, have best luck , with ewes housed at their facilities for at least 60 days prior to work.
As I was doing some paper work, I reviewed Trans Ova tips for a successful AI and ET program. It is a 90 program,and realistically a year around program, as to feed,mineral ,immunization,and body condition.
They have spent decades building the beef programs. And I based on conversation with producers ,their sheep program has had good success,IF directions are followed.
My observations,is that sheep producers, do not follow directions very well.
But ,I have seen a whole lot of AI lambs get the gate as well.
The ram is only half of the equation.
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well since you guys suggested that I have to be on top of my feeding program before LAI is it different than just flushing them for normal breeding with a ram? when I flush for breeding season I feed whole corn and alfalfa and they have lose selenium salt
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most firms are feeding very limited corn. It creates to much internal heat, for optimum embryo survival. Your ration would be likely low in all minerals with exception of perhaps calcium, and any hay over a month old has limited vits. I am not convinced that any hay,grain rations , has adequate vits, minerals, except during maintenance periods. Any other stage of production, those rations are decidedly lacking, in some area. Some recent work, suggests that mineral/vits mixed with salt, has limited Benefit, if mix is over a couple of weeks old. Many peeps , doing this work are using breeder vitamin pacs such as sure champ, vita ferm ect. I see a couple of places sell, products especially for this purpose. They run about .25 a day per ewe, so 60 days of that per ewe, will run you 15.00 per head. I am not advocating any, but a though vit/mineral/protein /energy ration , is imperative . I mix all rations on farm, and mix a ton or so of grain mix at a time. breeding and lactation are not times to scrimp. I am more prone to over supplement during those times, and use 3 different products to ensure high levels of vit,mineral supplementation. With 150 ewes and at times 300 or more on feed, fresh is not an issue here. Condition score should be at least 2.5 and more likely 3. This is not a time to scrimp on feed, or quality of feed. And time to achieve that is likely well before beginning cidr insertion. Any prebreeding vaccinations, must be done at least 30 days prior to cidr insertion,as well as deworming, feet trimming, and shearing.
ewes should be moved into the breeding gruop at least 30 days prior to and for at least 30 days after LAI. So that means at least 2 gruops of ewes , for at least 60 days. These ewes ,should be handled and stressed as little as possible, with other ewes. Ewes should be acclimated to working facility, before all of this begins. Ewes will be handled several times. at least 2 cidrs and 3 depending on protocal. ET ewes will be run through system many times. Catching one ,"behind a gate" ,or "running one around the pen" ,is not conducive a high rate of success.
Flushing ewes , is not an option for this. Skinny ewes do not work. They should be at the right condition , at least 30 days prior to ai. And taking those ewes home after AI, and kicking them out with the rest of the flock, is ill advised as well.
I would be contacting others in your area, who have a proven program in doing this, and do exactly , what your TECH says. Not what someone who heard, or what a friend of a friend of a friend, who knows someone, who did this.
Most Techs, have a protocal the works for them, and will be the best resource. I assume you must be thinking of breeding for fall lambs, so would be making sure all loose ends are tied up, very soon. As some one mentioned, A couple of firms have attractive pricing, right now.
I like to use proven rams in my choices, but others are infatuated with the pictures that young rams take. I have seen a lot of "young guns" take a good picture, and they 'aged" pretty bad. And again, depends on your ewes. If you got 3 or 4 K burning a hole in your pocket, a round of AI, will extinguish that fire ,pretty effectively.
good luck
And maybe your the guy, that knocks one out of the park, on your first turn at the plate. It does happen.
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right now there's no way for me to get custom feed ration mixed for the ewes because the mills around here demand a 4 ton min and it would ruin before I used it all also the expense of that is out for me, I am looking into Highnoons ewe ration to se if I can get it around here
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MS Feed in Tulare are shown as High Noon dealers on the High Noon website. If they are still dealers they'll probably order the ewe ration for you if they don't normally carry it. They may require that you purchase a minimum quantity, though.
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I would venture any feed mill ,has a sheep balancer protein pellet. Appropriate amount of that ,mixed with grain, should do nicely. If a feed mill ,is making sheep feed ,they have it.
Supplies all of the vits,minerals, usually has deccox or lactosoid, and has ammonium chloride for urinary acidification.
I would not feed sheep ,with out it. 300 to 500 pounds per ton of grain, and you got a pretty nice grain mix. I would use some oats or barley, to cut the corn,if hot weather is an issue
Late gestation,lactatiin, and breeding, protein is your friend.
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It is definitely at least a 3 month management plan to get ewes ready for LAI, however in terms of conception rates, I will say we got 100%, using Tad Thompsons protocol, frozen semen, and a local LAI tech. The tech does claim that the semen collected by Reproductive Specialty Group is the best quality he uses in all species, sheep, goats and deer. The only variation we made was using the Vitaferm Concept Aid mineral instead of the one Tad reccomends. Do your homework, best conception rates are in 2-5 year old ewes that have carried previous twin pregnancy, that in proper body condition, proper vaccinations, proper handling, ect. Alot of factors to consider.
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Honeytree I found a store close to me also thanks for the help, I am guessing you gave shots to your ewes as well? I have never gave prelambing shots of any kind and since is the first time I would take my ewes to get LAI I want to make sure I do that right thing
I want to thank all of you guys for the help and indulging my questions I feel a little foolish since I have raised sheep so long.
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Murphy's law WILL apply to LAI or ET ewes. Anything that can go wrong will.
I seem to remember abortion issues, coccidia issues and weak lamb issues. All things that can be mitigated by aggressive vaccination,nutrition and management.
Since the money was spent on trying to make LAI work, the mishaps will Start in that gruop of ewes.
It would be a shame to have a bunch of same issues ,after spending money of LAI.
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Jim, I followed Tad Thompson's protocol. If you follow it closely your take rate should be good. There are many factors that go into success plus a bit of luck. If you follow the protocol and your ewes are in proper condition, use a great tech and semen of excellent quality, you should be pretty happy five months later.
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I visited Three Sisters Sheep last week. They purchased a full draw of Burn semen and bred most or all of their ewes. I don't know the actual conception ratio but over 50 lambed with Burn lambs. The results were nothing short of impressive. Tremendous quality and consistency. With this said, they have a strong set of ewe and are experienced with AI, which I am sure helped with both conception rate and overall quality. I suspect the investment was a wise one for them.
Obviously you won't be going to this "extreme" but it does show that with proper management and solid ewes that it can work out well. However, if either of those two pieces are missing, it probably won't be worth it. A great ram bred to an average ewe is only going to give you slightly above average lambs. It probably wouldn't be worth the investment unless the ewes were significantly above average. Look at it this way. It's going to cost you $300/ewe to breed. Being conservative, if only half your ewes settle, that's $600/pregnancy. Figuring on a 150% lamb crop, that ends up being $400/lamb. That's JUST for breeding and does not take into account feeding the ewe for a year or feeding the lamb, etc. You better hope those AI lambs are worth significantly more than $400 each to break even. Of course you may get a better conception rate, but always wise to figure on worst case scenario. Just something to think about.
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I have been doing my homework before I decide and the cost per ewe to AI is $150 that is semen and tech service next ad in the feed CIDRS PG600 and other misc. meds as well as travel I think it would be just under $200 per ewe but I am still kicking around the ideal
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That's an interesting account of the visit to Three Sisters. I'm not a club lamb person, but I'd point out that I don't think you can overstate the value of experience and high quality females no matter what kind they are or how they're settled. I'd also say they had a pretty good idea what to expect if they were willing to commit 50+ ewes to one ram.
I'd also say that going on the cheap for the ram half of your equation is a false economy, whether on four feet or a glass tube. A half-price technician is apt to give you half-price results, in the same way that a cheap ram is going to give you cheap lambs.
If most people would spend the same money on prepping their ewes for natural cover that they do prepping for AI, and spend the time and money they spend on semen on improving their live cover rams, then combine saving the resulting ewe lambs with ruthless culling of their old ewes, they'd be further ahead in my opinion. The problem with that is that it's designed for consistent success in five years, not in lightning striking in five months. All of that said, it's your money- spend it how you like.
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Well stated Phil. I have always said ,your flock is only as good as your ewes. People wonder where the consistent good ones come from. A deep set of ewes , will carry about any ram. Most rams ,will not carry most ewes. And people with a deep set of ewes, rarely use a poorer ram than the ewe.
But a lot of crossbred ewe Flocks, pin all Thier hope, on the next ram.
Maybe Jim found a bargain priced ram. And it will work out.
I never seem to find those deals.😀
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Shane, I said in an earlier post that Viking Genetics is offering their entire ram base for $100/straw frozen. Their ram base is rock solid and have consistantly produced top quality lambs. Terry uses Dr. Tad Thompson for the LAI. Dr. Thompson charges around $50 for the procedure. Prior to using Viking I was afraid to use frozen semen because I had heard a lot of negatives about lower conception rates. My conception rate using VG frozen semen has been great. I am not a paid spokesman and have not received compensation. Just a happy customer :) I don't know if you are near one of his clinics but you can find your bargain with Viking.
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Phil, I suspect their only complaint will have to do with lambing out 50+ ewes that were all bred the same day. It was a busy, exhausting week. I sure wouldn't be afraid to breed my whole flock to Burn. He is certainly a proven ram.
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Glad it worked out for you Laura. He has some interesting rams, and I have seen lambs out of several of the rams. Others have spoken of success and quality of service. I typically have only used linebred Hampshire and linebred Dorset rams and when raised Suffolk's, linebred Suffolk rams. I have never had very consistent results , with using crossbred rams, so when I talk about a bargain ram, I am talking Hamps, or Dorsets. Not crosses , and any of the "Proven " Hampshire or Dorset rams , will set you back from 250 to 600 a straw .
If I am going to spend the money, I am using a proven purebred. I am looking at making the next breeding peice ,in my program.
You won't find a "proven" hamp or Dorset in that 100 price range.You can find some good rams, if crosses are your game.
I am not trying to bag on any programs, or breeder ,or genetic supplier. A lot or crossbreds ,being marketed as hamps and Dorsets. To some it matters, to some it doesn't.
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Hello all,
This is my first post here.
We experimented with AI for the first time last season.
We're a small breeder with 32 ewes. While other breeders were breeding with the latest rams, we were buying our rams. We lost a really nice ram a few years ago that we paid 4k for and that compounded our issues.
Last fall, we AI'd 12 ewes and had 8 pregnancies, so based on what we've been told and read, we weren't disappointed with those percentages.
We used Viking Genetics and Wheaton Hampshire's and this year, we'll be using both breeders again.
We're scheduled to breed 26 ewes between the two breeders this fall.
We understand that AI'ing isn't going to give us instant gratification. We're really using AI to HOPEFULLY get keeper ewes. Last season, we had 4 keeper ewes and one keeper ram that we've decided to breed with this fall.
I'm hoping that with some serious culling/flock reduction and the purchase of a few ewes over that span, we'll realistically start being comparative again in about 3 years.
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Welcome. What you are doing is roughly what we have done, only we did it with rams rather than AI. We really started out the wrong way, buying whatever hodgepodge ewes we could afford. They weren't all bad ewes but they were all over the place genetically. And our lambs were all over the place too. A good one here an there, a few bad ones and a lot of mediocre ones. It wasn't until we started tightening things up genetically that we really started getting some consistent quality in our lambs. We did this by using good rams, retaining ewe lambs from out best ewe families and culling hard. At one point a three years into this process, a good 75% of our ewe flock were all daughters of one ram, almost all out of half sisters themselves. This made it MUCH easier to find a ram that would work on our ewes. We really tried to find something that lined up well genetically and it worked. Since that time we have been focusing on the Composure line and it is paying off. Quality and consistency have been improving every year.
You can do the same with AI. The biggest risk I see with AI is the temptation to try a bunch of different rams. There are so many available! This may give you some good lambs but if you are trying to build a ewe flock, genetic consistency is very important. My suggestion would be to stick with just one or two rams from whatever genetic line you want to focus on. And then stick with it. Keep the daughters from the ewe families that line works with and sell the rest. Cull the ewes that don't work well with that line. And when you breed those daughters you keep, breed them to something lined up with them. We are to the point now that many of our lambs will have five or six or even more shots of Composure. It's back anywhere from three to seven generations, so they aren't so tight we end up with problems. But they are lined up enough that we now now what we are going to get from them and we know what kind of ram to put on them.
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Interesting to read about your journey.
I hope with some luck, we can do the same.
I totally agree with your philosophy re getting back on track.
It's Actually my father's flock.
It's pretty much a hobby farm.
We've had sheep for probably 45 years. We had a very solid flock for the past 30 years, but the past few years, we've gradually slipped and no longer see our lambs in the winners circle like we consistently did in the fairly recent past.
Our plan is to cull hard next spring after assessing the results of the breeding season.
Last season we bred to 6 different rams if you include the 4 we AI'd. So, we'll be breeding to a lot of different rams again this season.
Once we find some genetcs that work, I'd like to pretty much use that ram. But until then, we're still seeking a ram that works well with our ewes.
If we get the same conception rate next year as we did this year, we'll have a completely different flock a year from now with some hard culling.
I'm pretty excited about that.
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Update:
We AI'd 27 ewes this summer.
We had a 77.8% conception rate. Thus far anyways. We'll take that all day long.
We bred to:
Fuzz Balll
Steel Banana
Going Rogue
Knock Out
Our two clean-up bucks are out of Captain America and the other is a keeper buck out of Barely Legal.
We are very excited to see the lambs we get this year as we continue to reshape our flock.
How's everyone else doing with AI.
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That sounds pretty exciting!
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I used Justin Luther's Reproductive Services. Based on ewes getting marked again, we had 80% success. All bred to Big Star. That includes 2 of 3 ewe lambs that were 6 and 7 months age.
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Nice...! I was looking around on their site and I also like the ram, 'Stitch.'
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My lambs from the Modesto clinic are now 7-10 days old.
I bred 7 to Tomcat and 7 to 202. Frozen semen from both rams.
(No fuzzball or Steele Banana)Tomcat 5 of 7 settled
202 3 of 7 settled
57% settled. Miscommunication with host site was most likely the reason for my much lower than usual, but still good, take rate with Viking.
Final count for Tomcat: 2 singles, 1 set of twins, 2 sets of triplets
202: 1 single, 2 sets of twins
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That's awesome Honey Tree.
The tech of AI has really impacted the landscape in a positive way.
I'm really excited.
With smart decisions, you can reshape your flock in just a few years.
Especially for small flocks like mine with 37 ewes. Over the next few years, we'll reduce to even less as we aggressively cull and reshape our flock. Eventually we'll go back to previous levels.
To give you an idea, we're already considering rams to AI with in 2018.
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Well, its been a while.
How's everyone been doing?
What kind of results are you having with AI?
As I'd previously mentioned, we're culling our flock hard. We currently only have 19 ewes with 5 ewe lambs that we kept.
We sold everything!
We had two county fair champions from Steel Banana, so we bred/AI'd all 19 to Steel Banana this year.
We've worked with a prominent breeder in our region to lease a cleanup ram with some new genetics.
So, we are excited to see results this January.