Author Topic: What do you think about this breeding?  (Read 6205 times)

PeteM

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What do you think about this breeding?
« on: August 29, 2015, 07:26:51 pm »
We are still about a month away from letting the rams out, but we have been pondering about a full sibling mating. Both are sired by Rex's Shroyer buck Sum Buck and out of a home raised ewe that simply has never missed. We could breed the ewe to a Double Stuff X Maximus ram lamb we have and I would be excited with that. But the concept of the full sibling breeding intrigues me. I don't know there may not be any plusses. But I love how both of these sheep came out and I loved the wether we showed that was the twin to this yearling. What could be the negatives of doing this?
  • Pete Maples
Raising quality Hampshire and Shropshire clublambs.

Don Drewry

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 04:50:34 am »
What do you want out of the breeding?
? Wether - could be a great show lamb
? Ram - may be a very consistent breeder
? Ewe - may be good but the disadvantages of inbreeding will show up most on a retained ewe. (Less fertile, less milking ability), some of the other disadvantages (slower growth) don't really matter with club lambs.  If you get a ewe, do you or will  you have a ram to breed her to.  Not so great if you end up with one ewe that needs her own ram.

But, lambs could be great, or might not be
  • Don Drewry
Raising Hampshire club lambs and terminal sire breeding stock with EBVs.

PeteM

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 06:08:19 am »
Don we always have two rams. I had not thought about the ewe lamb disadvantages. I just know that we have had 3 lambs out of there dam/sire combination and we have had a winning wether, very successful show ewe and a keeper ram. We have a complete out cross ram available and I was originally taking for granted that we would breed to him.
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Bigiron59

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 07:33:59 am »
Full sib matings have been accidental here, and never worked out. They will bring all the defects to the table. Sire to daughter has been very effective her, and concentrates the rams genes. Mother / son has not worked for me, concentrates the mothers.   Full sib matings are in breeding at its finest. They will bring out the lethal defects.   Sire /daughter ect are linebreeding and actaully have a much lower coefficient of breeding.
Your sheep, depends how "clean" your pedigrees are.
I don't do that intentionally, though I do like half sib matings. Again , a much lower coefficient in breeding value.
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Wisconsinsheep

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 11:29:43 am »
Yikes... Thats a goofy looking lamb waiting to happen.
What do you guys think of half sibling breedings?
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Don Drewry

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 12:26:03 pm »
Shane, you're not quite in agreement with standard inbreeding coefficient math. (assuming past generations are unrelated)
Mother/son, father/daughter, full sibs all equal a 25% coefficient, see: http://abri.une.edu.au/online/pages/inbreeding_coefficient_help.htm

Unless  you've a sex linked trait and there aren't that many in sheep. father/daughter, mother/son make no difference.  If your best sheep is a ewe and not a ram than you might do the mother/son and have better luck than father/daughter.

The 25% coefficient is on the higher end BUT you still only have a 25% chance of two copies a recessive gene showing up.  So, a single full brother/sister or parent/child mating is still more likely to NOT show a genetic defect.  The bigger issues is the inbreeding depression that the above URL discusses.

Shane's correct half sibs coefficient is much less as it's only 12.5%

Pete, if you do get a ram that you really like the other thing you want to do is think through if you've got ewes to breed him to.  He's by definition going to be closely related to one of your best ewes and you've probably have multiple daughters of her.  One of the problems of trying to use line-breeding in small flocks is we don't have that many different lines so once we get a linebred ram we really like, can we use him?  If you do good chance most of your lamb crop starts being highly related as they are either related to him on the sire side or the dam side.  I've got that in my flock right now with my registered Hamps.  I've got a very good ram lamb that I have no registered sheep to breed him to.  All my registered ewes are either aunts or 3/4 sisters.  In his case he's only with our unregistered club lamb ewes but I'm pretty sure I'll have disappointed potential buyers next  year if his lambs look like the EBVs say they should.  But, I just don't own more registered ewes to breed him to right now.
  • Don Drewry
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EmsoffLambs

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 02:36:06 pm »
I've got a similar situation here. Not quite full siblings but closer than half. Yearling ram (ExGames) and ewe lamb have the same dam. The ewe lamb's sire and ExGames share the same sire (Enigma) and are both out of Monster daughters. I thought about breeding this ewe lamb to ExGames, but looking further down the road, I am going to breed her to Maximus instead and if I get a keeper buck, he should work really wall on the ExGames daughters and if I get a ewe, ExGames should work really well on her.

Sooo.... In your case, I would probably breed her to Your Golden Boy x Maximus buck. Then if you get a ewe lamb, breed her to her uncle. They are still lined up but you aren't going to have to deal with reduced reproductive performance to the same extent.
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Bigiron59

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 03:29:38 pm »
My smart phone did not post what I thought I typed. Here father daughter works well . Mother son has not. Same level of coefficient.
That being said , when I worked in aniaml research with some of the best genticists in the world, both at the epigentic level and the molecular genetics level, none were concerned with any matings we did , except full sibs. That was done only as a back up plan to preserve genetic lines.   Since our cell lines were proprietary and g8 to g 10 cloned lines, it became an issue of inbreeding regression. We had 1 cell line that worked well in our program, but the more intensly that line was inbred, them more defects came out.   The full sib mating was anaylized for 2 years before being attempted, and  worked as well as any. But was the only mating they were concerned with ,that can bring lethal gene defects out , even in what is considered a clean pedigree. This company help write the computer program that finishing mapping the bovine genome. Any thing published before about 10 years ago in genetics , was largely based on conjecture and mathematical equations. No one really knew all the possible outcomes, as the possibilities of genes stacking differently are in the 10s of thousands. Some the previous calculations were based on mathematical equaitons of conjecture and probibilities. After the computer programs and actual computer capabilities were big enough to tackle the task, the outcomes are different than previously thought.
It was easier to send men to the moon and likely mars, that project the outcomes of some of the genetics . Simply put, negative associations from environment can  mutate genes as they are assembled in the formation of the egg.  The full sib mating provides the best foundation to express the mutations.
That being said, in my commercial hair flock last year, I did do a full brother sister mating. The resulting ewe lamb is easily the best of the bunch. She is batsh-t crazy and will shake violenty if pressured in pen
Her background has at least 5 generations of 100 percent unrelated in any way . Clay Center has carefully started that project with 38 ( i think.may have been 18)parent lines that are unrelated in any way. 
But breeding full sibs that have common ansestors is much more risky.
Hope my phone does not " mutate" this post.
As stated , it would be done as last resort and many preservation lines do this. However most preservation lines are more primitive to begin with.
That was discussed at lenght in the above program. In nature, you have selective and Darwin working. Weakings are naturally culled
 When man intervenes , weaklings are saved and generally propegated as now there is emotional attachment.
We had  a lot of female caregivers for our clones , and mostly scientific males types that enfforced a very strict culling strategy.
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Don Drewry

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 04:06:58 pm »
BI, the difference that the geneticists were worried about full sibs is probably the difference between the theoretical gene mix they would have on the average and what two specific animals would have.  On the average full sibs share 50% of their genes but in reality they could share no genes they could share almost 100%, where a parent to child is going to have exactly 50% shared.  That said, most full sibs will have very close to 50% the same genes given the randomness of the process and the number of genes involved.  If they were doing genetic research that chance for a not near 50% split may have been an important confounding factor they wanted to avoid.  One of the hardest selection criteria that the environment will complicate is out of season lambing.  A large number of ewes will naturally breed in the right circumstances but very few will lamb year in and year out regardless of weather, condition, lambing interval and other factors. 
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PeteM

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 04:34:37 pm »
Thanks for the replies and insight. We will put the sister in with the nonrelated ram lamb. It will be exciting and scary this season with all new rams to work with. Hamps will be bred to Mas Hombre (Double Stuff X Maximus) and Indian Creek (Sum Buck X WhoDaThunk (Six Bits)). Shrops will be bred to Dr. Feel Good (Mr. Trouble (Cabaniss) X Ebert (Versace)). We will see this Spring how things work out.
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EmsoffLambs

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 04:46:34 pm »
I hope Mas Hombre works out well for you. We have been beyond please with our Maximus ewe lambs. In talking with a few people who have used Maximus in the past, they say his sons are good, but it's his daughters that are really valuable. We don't have lambs out of any of ours yet, but we sure are excited to see what we get from them.
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Bigiron59

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 05:26:52 pm »
Had this discussion with some breeders a month ago Ems.  They been at this a long time. Ewes are the foundation of any flock. But at some point ,some terminal shape is needed. And wethers need terminal shape. Most rams make one or the other. They make wethers and terminal females, or they make stud females and maternal wethers.  .   
  Hope your rams work out .     I see some realy terminal made females in my travels and some freaky terminal rams. They never have a "soft" look to them.
That's what makes this fun.
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EmsoffLambs

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Re: What do you think about this breeding?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 05:57:32 pm »
It will be interesting to see. These lambs are the most "terminal" that I have ever had, Really massive topped and big hipped. By far the thickest set of lambs I've ever had. But as I've said, the breeders who have used him have all said his daughters really produce. One told me that all their stud buck prospects came from Maximus daughters this year. Another said they produced their highest selling wethers. He's got daughters working in at least four fairly prominent flocks, so I guess that would be considered proven....
  • Crystal Emsoff
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