Choice of Ram for breeding for Ewe Lambs

[jwoods]

What is the consensus for choice of rams with ewe lambs?  Do other breeders select and use rams for lower birth weights, smaller frames, head/shoulder structure etc. for ease of birth for first-timers?  Just curious of others thoughts and experience.

Joe

[EmsoffLambs]

It has been my experience that in sheep, as apposed to cattle, the sire has less to do with birth size than feed the ewe receives the last trimester. I personally have always used the same ram on ewe lambs I've used on the mature ewes. Yes, I do end up pulling a few more lambs from the yearlings than I do from the mature ewes, but not an unreasonable amount.

Feeding ewe lambs right is even more critical than with the mature ewe flock. You must feed the ewe lambs for good growth but not get them too fat and not get their lambs too big. It's a balancing act.

This being said, I might be more concerned using a monster boned ram that is so trendy these days. The rams I have used thus far have all certainly been adequate in bone but they have not been those really monster boned sheep. I am curious to hear if anyone has had increased issues from increased bone size, especially since this is one of my selection criteria for my next ram purchase.

[PeteM]

I had a discussion with a prominent breeder about the direction the industry was going and birthing problems. He said that the width of forehead of the mature ram could be an indicator of some lambing troubles. He had a line of rams that he had to be careful what he bred them to. Lamb weight, as Crystal stated, has more to do with maintenance and feed trough domination by the ewe than genetics.

[Don Drewry]

NSIP now has a EBV for birthweight.  For this to happen there has to be enough genetic impact for there to be some inheritability to birthweight.  The phenotype I'd look for ewe lambs would be
- Smooth shoulders
- some neck length
- wide pin set (particularly on the ewes)
- select against large mature frame
- if you've used the ram before, how were his lambs.  If you pulled several use a different ram.

I've found as a general rule, the more "clubby" the genetics were the easier lambing was.  Our original blackface ewes had some frame genes in them and some of our NSIP sheep we've purchased have some frame genetics.  Those sheep birthweights tend to be 2-3 lbs bigger than "pure" club lamb genetics, (I know there's not really such a thing.)

All that said, as Crystal pointed out don't overfeed the ewe lambs.  They need IMO alfalfa hay and 14% protein for grain.  You get more protein than that you get way too big of lambs.

[sheepherder007]

After many years of lambing "Western" finewool ewes the Hampshire & Southdown sheep we raised in the 60's were all watermelon headed rugged sheep very similar to the current "trend".    Lambing time was a "NEVER LEAVE" situation if you wanted live babies.  I will never forget how easy our first Suffolks lambed (they were as easy as the westerns).   I don't miss lambing big headed sheep and don't plan on going back there.  There is a definite correlation to head width and size and lambing issues.  That being said it is also true that big shoulders go with big heads.  SO any issue that increases the width and size of the initial presentation through the birth canal  will have a negative effect on lambing ease.  If you maintain ewe size these issues are not as critical and that is where ewe lamb problems come in simply because mature size is lacking.  Feeding practices can be used to control size of lambs but keep in mind if you control feed too tight, you will have a mature size loss also.   This is where having a good understanding of nutrition and various methods to achieve desired results are very helpful.    Show lamb feeding practices are not ewe flock or finishing(feedlot) friendly. 

[Bigiron59]

Genetics have an impact. As well as phenotype.
If you look at calving ease and work done it calving first calf heifers, you can make a resonable project to ewe lambs.
In cattle , once head  size reaches a threshold , all most all births above that are heavily assisted.
And saveing heifers from these big boned sires lead to even more assisted births.
In cattle, many have also done work with pelvic measurments.
And like the punkin head males, the larger pelvic opening heifers, had a higher incendence of assisted births, once the came on line in production.

Feed can have an impact. Not as much in my opionin , as others think.
Also the " level hip" obsession will impact lambing ease.
The birth canal and pelvic opening are designed to be a slight arch by nature. Just as in cattle.
The  flatter hipped, and you tip the pelvis , making the hole smaller in the wrong way.
Same with extremely short hip, that is prevalent in so many today.

Follow your passion.
If you want to pull them all, that genectic package is available in a lot if places.
If numbers are your game, i would imagine that those options are more limited.
 Haveing just returned from a fast family gathering, and a visit with my youngest brother, its always refreshing.
He has worked with Dave Notter and most of the beef breed Associations  in his work as a Qauntitative  Genetisist and ruminant nutritionist.
His take is that , the more we think we know, the less we do.
And the latest buzz is now about the epigenetic influence, that may have a much higher influence than previously given credit for.

If it was easy, we all would be rich☺
Here its pretty easy.
If I assist a high percentage of any rams lamb births, he is culled.  And I  wont use any more punkin heads. I bought one some years ago. The ability of those genes to continully breed through and produce some surpizing outcomes , amazes me.
I ask my self, with any ram purchased.
Will I have to "protect" him on how I breed him?
If the answer is yes, I pass.
 Agian.
If you are making trendy "clubbys" you likey are going to have to make choices and except the fact that some percentage will be assisted and will also be "throw aways"
You have to decide at what point that becomes financially "painful" enough to make better breeding choices.
4

[woolpuller]

The one item not mentioned is age of ram used.  I have found that using ram lambs on ewe lambs gives a lot less pregnancies.  I now only use adult rams and have 80% of ewe lambs lamb.

[Don Drewry]

Bill that's interesting.  We have pretty different result.  It's been several years since 100% of our ewe lambs haven't lambed.  Depends on the year but some years we breed them to ram lambs, and some years to older rams. Occasionally, the only studs we use are ram lambs.

What we see when we synchronize our mature ewes is typically older rams will settle around 60-70% of them and a ram lamb will settle about 70-80%.  Regardless of the specific percentages we always get the highest settling from ram lambs.  The same rams a year older tend to settle a few less ewes.  I talked to some vets that were involved using CIDRS a lot and they said that wasn't unusual.  BTW we put up to 8 ewes per day per CIDR pull.

[EmsoffLambs]

Is that 8 per ram, Don? When I mentioned to Glenn Erickson that I was pulling five a day, he said that might be a few too many and recommended just 3 per day. This was for a mature ram.

[Don Drewry]

Yes, I do up to 8 per day.  I got this number from Tyson Rule several years ago.  When we left the CDRs in 5 days instead of 12 last year I think we approached 90% settling with most of the rams, (unfortunately, the lambing rates were lower due to mid-gestation abortion on some).  The only ram lamb that didn't settle a very high percentage on the first cycle was my March 1st born ram lamb that I used around August 8.  He only settled 2 of his 8 ewes the first time, but 17 days later he settled all 6 he missed.  I'm going to give him a pass since he was barely 5 months old. 

The one time I exceeded 8 ewes per ram, one of the rams I was going to lease tested sterile.  I thought my very aggressive ram could handle 15 ewes per day so I just gave him twice as many as I was going to.  Instead I got 2 ewes bred, so I don't exceed 8 per day anymore.   For rams we want to breed more than 8 ewes, we pull up to 8 CDRs the next day.  I've done that for 3 days.  Last year on the 4th day I tried to collect semen on him.  They told me his semen quality was very high but that there wasn't very much volume (don't know why, he only had bred 24 ewes in 3 days, marking them all over their rump completely.)

Our paradigm is different than some.  I need to go on business trips knowing I won't have lamb born so longest we breed ewes is 3 days in a row.  That way I know I have a window of no lambs before the ewes that didn't settle the first time get re-bred.

[EmsoffLambs]

I wonder is season makes a difference? I CIDR for fall lambs, so rams are breeding May/June/July. I believe rams are less fertile then that they would be a couple months later.

[Don Drewry]

From what I know it's somewhat breed depending and specific ram depending on their usefulness of out of season breeding.  If you don't need to lamb them as close as possible, no harm in pulling only 3 or 4 a day.  I did notice when I mixed my rams this spring that they seem to fight much less when being combined this time of year.

[woolpuller]

Hi Don:
   In my case I do not use CIDRS before hand just naturally.
  However for yrlng ewes and older when I use AI I definitely use CIDRS.
Bill

[jwoods]

Thanks everyone!