The Lamb Pen
General Category => All Sheep and Lamb Discussion => : EmsoffLambs September 01, 2016, 05:35:11 PM
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What is standard procedure in this situation?
I bought a mature ram in partnership with another breeder. Had him hauled here in early June and my partner turned him out with a half dozen CIDRed ewes. He marked them, but they all just ultrasounded open. He's been with another handful of ewes and remarked them three or four times. Just had him semen checked and in her words, "He is all bad.......less than 40% viable sperm, slow motility, 60% gross abnormalities, ie; separated heads/tails, somethng called mid piece droplets, which basically looks like it's folded in half and causes it to go in circles....He says there is no way to know if/when he'll improve but at this point he is not producing enough good semen to get these ewes bred." So we have had this ram nearly three months and he has not settled a single ewe.
I contacted the seller prior to the semen test to give him a heads up and his only response was that he sired 30+ lambs last year. Obviously I don't believe the seller knowingly sold us an infertile ram. But what would be standard procedure here? Are we just out our money or is the seller obligated to refund our money? I know what I would do myself if I were in his shoes, but ethically/legally, what happens in this situation? There was no discussion about guaranteed fertility, but is it implied when you sell a ram? I just want to know what is reasonable to ask for/expect, if anything.
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Crystal, I've experienced the situation at least twice. The first was from a ram that I purchased in Sedalia. Had him checked and his semen was not good; mal-formed, broken tails... I contacted the breeder, who was very good and offered a replacement if he didn't get better. (he did get better after a few months) The other time, the sterility was caused from excessive heat (according to the vet), I contacted the breeder, to let him know about the condition and he sent semen to cover the open ewes. If it were me, I'd offer a replacement or a credit. Good luck with him.
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In general my experience is that rams are guaranteed to be breeders in the long run but not the short run. So, in the event a ram isn't settling ewes the first step is to have a semen test done. Based on that test and the vet's opinion you determine if he's permanently sterile or possibly temporarily sterile. If after a few months, you retest and he's still sterile than in almost every case I know of the seller makes good on the guarantee. If he's temporarily sterile and you've not ever gotten lambs out of him, it's not uncommon for the seller to offer a temporary fix such as a backup ram or semen like stated above.
The guarantee would tend to be buyers choice of, comparable ram or return of money. In most states a stud sold would be implicitly assumed to be good for breeding and small claims court would support the guarantee even if not explicitly stated in the selling agreement.
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Did the seller provide you with a semen test prior to shipping the ram? Shipping can be really hard on fertility. Siring 30 lambs only proves that he was fertile 1yr ago, not that he was fertile just prior to the sale. When we have shipped rams long distances, we have semen check prior to sale to hold as proof of fertility at time of sale. Then explain that the buyer is responsible for fertility issues that occur do to disease or transport stress. If they have that, then I would say you are stuck for at least another 60 days to see if he remains infertile, or if it is temporary do to transport.
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No semen test prior to shipping that I am aware of. I was attributing it to shipping stress, but that was 11 weeks ago. Everything I have read says it takes 8 weeks for the production of viable semen. So I figured if it was shipping stress, he would have been good three weeks ago. We will be having the ram retested in a couple weeks by Glen Erickson and will get his opinion on the long-term outlook. If he just needs more time, so be it. But if it's a permanent problem, then I need to know how to proceed.
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40 percent viable should be settling some ewes. They produce billions of cells per ejacualate. And normally breed each ewe multiple times. He may nit settle a lot of ewes. And its plenty early yet.
Everyone seems to think bf sheep ,both ewes and rams, should be very fertile in july. Its not so. Would venture its a combination of both questional fertility of ram , and ewes not very fertile yet either. Would assume he will settle some ewes next cycle.
Has this ram been tested clean of B Ovis?
A possiblity that he is infected.
Another reason not to share rams or buy old rams.
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June bred ewes all ultrasound. August bred ewes all recycled at least three times. Glen Erickson seemed to think he would be able to concentrate the semen and get some ewes bred via AI. He also was hopeful that he would improve base on the report. He will retest the ram himself in 10 days. I don't need to use him for another month. Hopefully he will be fertile by then.
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june bred ewes are rare for most. Trying to figure out how how an August bred ewe ,has recycled 3 time. 17 day cycle . If bred august 1st, then would be back on August 18th,Sept 4th,and September 21st.Maybe sheep cycle differently in other areas. here they are every 17 days.Regular as a clock.
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Come on. So the first breedings were in July, then a couple more times in August. The point is the ewes were cycling, the ram was covering them and they weren't sticking. This breeder CIDRs and breeds in June every year. Of course they don't all stick but some should. That's how people get fall lambs. This ram's fertility is sub par, regardless of season. We are hoping he improves but if he does not, I was wanting to know what standard procedure is. That's it. I understand basic sheep reproduction and yes, sometimes I generalize to save typing.
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Just had a ram Collected .He was very fertile. Got 8 ml on an ejaculate, and had to extend twice what considered normal to even get a good count.
He had bred 20 ewes from august 14 to august 28.
This was done t Iowa State.
They have tested a lot of rams,10 the day I was there.
over fifty percent were as yours is. I was glad mine was good and successfully froze semen. And survived post thaw.
Point being, they test hundreds of rams per year, and many will fail until late august or september.
A lot of rams have been sidelined in midwest,because of heat ,humidity .
May take 8 weeks to recover. An agressive mineral program seems to help. As does shade,breeding at night,fans and manageing breeding to conserve ram serving capacity. Maybe you have been lucky , and not had a problem .
Based on semen test, your ram is producing . You would be hard pressed to collect anything.Most auctions have specific criteria to deem a ram non producer.Including returning to breeder ,at your cost.The ram has to be in at least as good of condition, weight as when you recieved him. And breeder has right to use ram himself.If he settles ewes for breeder , your out.
That being said, I have sold one bad ram .15 plus years ago, a ram lamb sold at Sedalia to Pennsylvania. Buyer noticed ram lamb remarking,tested and 100 percent deformed.
They bred ewes to back up ram, and waited 3 months to retest. Still dead.
Sent ram to sale barn.They took pick out of my Sedalia consignment the following summer.And sent me check for salvage value of ram.I did not ask for or expect that.They were happy with replacement. I could have had them return ram.O trusted thier vet.
Talk to the breeder,and see what they have to say.
This one may be chalked up to tution.
Sometimes you pay to play
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and I would be looking at a ewe problem. Either mineral, heat or low level infection.
With what he is producing,he should have settled one or 2.
Not all breeding failures are the rams fault.
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It was very hot in June so perhaps the ram was heat stressed as Cindy mentioned happened to her ram above. With Glen coming in a couple weeks it may be that he is improving and since you don't have a benchmark perhaps that is the case. I am sure Glen has recommended that you feed him wheat germ oil to help improve his semen quality. I got a ram back that had a massive infection but it took over six months.
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How much wheat germ oil do you give Karen?
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Yes, I would like to know the amount as well. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try!
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I give a couple of table spoons morning and night over a little bit of grain. These are usually older Rams so not much grain. You can but the wheat germ oil at Tractor Supply. In the horse section.
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Crystal, We were trying to get semen on my old Handcock ram and his semen was ok but not quite good enough to freeze. Glen had me feed wheat germ for a month, put him with a couple Cidered ewes and 30 days later he was perfect. He was eight years old. I swear by the stuff.
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Thanks Karin. We've had having some heat related sterility.
From what I've heard there has been more than usual this year in my area anyway.
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Did you buy him from the breeder or was he a second hand purchase?
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Jimmy, not from original breeder.
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That could pose a problem. I'm sure most breeders stand behind the fertility of the rams they sell, I know I have. Buying one second-hand might be more of an issue. A seller might not feel obligated to stand behind him since he wasn't the breeder. If he got lambs from him last year, he might feel like it's a problem that occurred after you purchased him. I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy, just saying that might be the case. Some type of infection is most likely the cause and can usually be corrected, it just takes time. I'd have him checked again and if still no good, contact the seller and see what he might be willing to do.
I bought a yearling at Sedalia one year that had been used by the breeder as a lamb. When I had him tested, the vet said he was no good and never would be. I contacted the seller. He said he would refund my money or replace him, but wanted me to contact his son-in-law, who is a vet, and see what he recommended. He gave me an antibiotic and wheat germ protocol to follow and the ram came back around and I used him for several years. The breeder also loaned me a ram lamb (son of the ram I bought) to use in the meantime.
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What antibiotic? I don't HAVE to use him for another month or two, so if he is on the mend I can deal with it. The first vet didn't see any sign of epididymitis.
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He had me give 10cc penicillin one day and 10cc Baytril the next. Alternate for 8 days. Sounds excessive but it worked.
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Nuflor for two weeks every other day was advised by a vet for a ram lamb we tested last summer and he came around in time to sire some February lambs.
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We also had a ram with an infection and used Nuflor. It took awhile but he came back with wheat germ therapy.
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Jimmy, I don't know the specific laws in California. But, generally speaking any animal sold as a stud would have an implicit warranty that he was capable of siring offspring. If the purchase price was the same as slaughter price as a sale barn then such a warranty wouldn't apply. But, when the seller has charged a premium price for a stud, then unless explicitly not warrantied it would usually be assumed to be so capable. Whether or not the seller raised or had purchased the animal would not have any legal impact even if it may have an impact on the sellers desire to so warranty him.
In this case since the ram was used out of season, that wouldn't be considered a warrantable situation but if he's still not settling ewes this time of year it would be more of a problem. Some states don't have an statute that warrants studs are so capable. In those cases it would really depend on how an animal was described. In my opinion it would be fairly difficult to sell a ram and not make a de facto commitment that he would be capable of siring lambs. In most cases things like this are settled between the buyer and seller without resorting to a small claims court. Few sellers wish to have it public knowledge that they don't stand behind their breeding stock. In this case, I'd sure have a hard time not feeling an obligation if I sold a ram to a well established breeder and they didn't get lambs out of him. If it was a new breeder and there was evidence of poor feed and/or housing and no semen test I'd be a lot more reluctant but would offer an alternative ram all the same.
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Got a good update on the ram. He was checked again yesterday and was up to 50% viable sperm. He also settled one ewe. So a few more weeks and he should be good to go. I am relieved!
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The ram should be capable of siring offspring on the day of the sale. It would be the buyers right and obligation to ask for health papers and semen test results. Without that kind of paper trail it becomes an "honor system" transaction. Which I think most sellers will work with the buyer to make restitutions. After the animal is on the buyers property for a period of time it becomes pretty hard, for the seller, to stand behind what they haven't controlled.
Definitely glad it's working out for you Crystal.
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Crystal,
IIRC, wheat germ is high in lysine. We have always fed our boarder line rams a tea spoon of lysine. Buy it from our local feed mill. They may have to order it, but it is cheaper and as effective, if not more than wheat germ oil.