Author Topic: Newborn acting weird  (Read 6235 times)

MizLiz

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Newborn acting weird
« on: December 30, 2015, 01:52:41 am »
Had a huge buck lamb born early Tuesday morning before I got there at 8am. Mom had him up and dry. Tests stripped and watched him nurse. Put him in a jug and all day he was fine. At about 5pm I noticed he was laying on his side struggling to get up. I got him up and his back end was weak and he would lean against my hand and then his backers would give out and he'd lay down. Stomach looked a little hollow. Have him .2 of Bose and tubed him about 200 ml ( he's at least 15-20lbs)). His back end seemed to get stronger and at 9pm he seemed to starch out and look uncomfortable. I gave him a mini enema and got out long stringy meconium. He seemed better. Just checked him at 1230 am. His belly is full but he is still acting weird haunched and then stretched out. Have another enema and got a little more meconium out, not stringy. Still have yet to see him pee. Mouth is warm, not cold, not hot. I didn't tube him cause his belly was full. Have him some Vitamin B. His pizzle is in the right spot, not sure if I am just missing him peeing and something else is wrong or what. Any ideas/suggestions? Or am I worrying too much?
  • Liz Bohan
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Don Drewry

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2015, 07:29:57 am »
Usually one of the symptoms of a lamb not getting enough colostrum early enough is the meconium didn't pass.  Sometimes with big lambs its hard to realize how much they need and also they seem so big and strong initially that they don't get quite the review a smaller lamb would get.

He has symptoms of not getting enough food.  Take his temperature and you'll be able to tell for sure.  Under 102  he's not getting enough food.  You CANNOT tell by the finger in the mouth technique.  Your body temperature is around 98.6, you can't tell the difference between 102.6 and 100.  Both will feel warmer than your finger.  Lambs that are somewhat constipated your tough to get going.  If over 100, I'd tube him with what flows in easy and check moms udder.  If his stomach is full and he's got a low body temperature you need to "break the dam" and get the undigested milk flowing through his gut.  I'd give him a laxative like mineral oil and include probiotics in the food you give him.  It's easier for lambs to get the digestive process going on a electrolyte mix than milk.
  • Don Drewry
Raising Hampshire club lambs and terminal sire breeding stock with EBVs.

MizLiz

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2015, 07:34:45 am »
Just checked him this morning, he's weak and cold. I've got him in the car with the heater on high. Can't hold his head up. What's the best way to warm him?
  • Liz Bohan
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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 11:23:12 am »
If they are lethargic  I soak them in the sink with water that is normal lamb body temperature or a bit above.  Just don't want to cook him.  You have to hold their head up, of course.  Putting them on a heating pad or under a heat lamp works well too, but I've found that the warm water gets their temp up faster.  You just have to be sure to dry them well or they will chill almost immediately.  Hair dryers work well after a vigorous towel dry.  Just use care not to burn them with the dryer.

I've had lambs that I figured were beyond help and because I had to leave, I left them on a heating pad.  Came home to find lambs running around the house pooping everywhere.  If you can get ahold of a dog heating mat, they work the best for a consistent temperature.

Let us know how the baby does.
  • Laura Overton

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2015, 12:07:39 pm »
He's not getting enough to eat. Warming it water is the fastest way to get his body temperature up. Once he can hold his head up, you have to get colostrum into him. For a lamb that big, I would do 8 oz every 6 hours. Tube him for now until you are sure he's eating from mom.
  • Crystal Emsoff
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Bigiron59

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2015, 06:33:14 pm »
He may be past the point. Big lamb and slow were key here.  He has to be warm to be able to digest milk. My personal preference on these is eletrolytes and nutri drench. Rapid enegy once warm. They do not have to digest anything. He has burned all internal fat by now. If he misses a meal in a day or to he is gone. He will be prone to relaspe of chilling. It takes a few days go recover. Also big lamb,may have swelling around brain. Shot of dex ,will help with that.
I would look at why I had a large lamb. I am guessing this lb has never nursed. You watched him try. He may have   filled up on water. One reason I never leave a water pail in jugs. I put water in and watch ewe drink, pail comes out.
To many variables to try to fix over the internet.
Hope he makes it for you.
  • Shane Kirschten

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2016, 05:43:54 am »
I agree with Shane, that you may be past the point. I'll echo what everyone else has said: he's cold because he hasn't gotten enough to eat, and now it's a race. Put him in a garbage sack up to his ears and then put the sack in a bucket or a sink full of warm water until his body temp comes up. Use a thermometer to find this out. If he will suck a bottle, put everything he will eat down him with a bottle as soon as he is warm. If he won't, tube him, and add some Nutridrench or the like either way for fast energy. Keep him warm. Feed him again. In a lifetime around sheep, and 27 years married to a vet, I have never seen or heard of anyone giving a lamb an enema until I joined a sheep forum on the Interweb. Get enough in to the mouth end, and the rest will take care of itself. In my experience with lambs, about 99% of baby lamb problems come back to: didn't get enough to eat.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 05:47:03 am by PCrome »
  • Phil Crome

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2016, 05:45:19 am »
Sorry Crystal and Laura, I see too late that I'm echoing your advice as well, didn't mean to not acknowledge you.
  • Phil Crome

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2016, 06:48:51 am »
Phil, I think the cases of an enema helping a lamb are correlated with the shepherds skills. When the lambs get enough colostrum early enough it's not a problem. When I'm not home and other people help out AND there's some problem it's fairly likely that some of the new born lambs don't get colostrum.  If I'm home, I'd milk some out and tube the lamb immediately.  My helpers don't always do that. Those are the lambs that if when I get home are weak i see an enema make a difference.  Usually by the time I'm home some one has poured some milk into the lamb but probably 4 to 6 hours after it was born. In those cases the gut is full but the lamb is cold and weak. Tubing additional fluids don't accomplish anything as the lamb is full. Removing the plug via an enema helps. I find the dextrose injections to be even more reliable, but an enema is very easy, cheap and quick so I would give a lamb one. It shouldn't be relied upon as the primary trstment. I'd compare it to a vitamin B shot. Many give such a shot routinely,  I almost never do as I've never felt one has helped a lamb but many swear by them.
  • Don Drewry
Raising Hampshire club lambs and terminal sire breeding stock with EBVs.

PCrome

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2016, 07:18:55 am »
Don,

I'll bow to your experience on this one, and what you say makes a lot of sense. In my case, since I am gone from home long hours, when I see a lamb born or come on a new one, I make sure they're fed, either by bottle or with a tube.  Otherwise, I wonder about it all day or stay awake wondering at night. I've never had a lamb not figure out where the tap is because it's first meal didn't come straight from mom, and it sure eases my mind. I feed them a lot on that first meal, too. A big lamb will take eight ounces, easy, before it can even stand up, and as soon as it gets up it heads straight for the tap. Better to know than to wonder, I say.
  • Phil Crome

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2016, 08:54:53 am »
I think some misunderstand the likelihood of how often an enema helps.  As you and others have noted, by far the most important thing in getting a new lamb going properly is getting enough colostrum into it right away.  When it's roughly zero or warmer, if I do nothing but make sure a lamb has colostrum by tubing it just after its born it's chances of living are very high.  When it's bitter cold (let's arbitrarily say below 0 F), getting lambs dry as fast as possible is just as important.  I'm really impressed with how BigIron says his hair lambs get up and going w/o any assistance even when it's super cold.  If I don't dry lambs off immediately when it's that cold we will have at least ears frozen off.  A few unlucky lambs lose hooves.  It seems at below zero, colostrum by itself doesn't do the job.  Mom can get one lamb cleaned up in time but the twin that's not cleaned off by mom we consider at high risk until dry. Hence, at those temperatures we frequently bring the lambs inside our house.  Tube them, dry them off and return them to mom in 30-45 minutes. 

There are a lot of body systems that need to start working at birth.  Respiration, body temperature regulation and digestion are the big ones that come to mind.  I see posts stating that new borns can control their temperatures for a few days.  Once they are dry I don't see this BUT the window to fix insufficient calories is much smaller than when it's warm out.  I know of too many people that have had their barns burn down from heat lambs so they scare the heck out of me. Simply put, cold lambs are cold from insufficient calories, not from the weather unless they are exposed to wind/or rain. If the lamb is out of the wind and dry and has food to eat they are fine in the bitter cold.  I'm not sure the exact temperature in the  jug but they spend most of their first few days within a few inches of mom, wether they are in a jug or in a mixing pen.  The microclimate for those lambs is warmer than it is for ewes in the drop pen.

I'm not sure we fully understand all the benefits of colostrum.  It's more than just the future immunization. It's more than just energy content obtained by analysis.  The stuff is clearly very quickly digested and it's almost like mainlining energy into a lamb.  Artificial replacements don't replicate this as near as I can tell.  I also think BigIron is right is suspecting that the large lamb may have had some issues during the birth process a lot of big lambs seem extremely stupid for a few days. 

All in all I think some smart vet should come up with a formal syndrome for "Big Lambs and newbies".  Combining the frequent apparent brain damage, with the appearance of a super big, super strong lamb at birth results in what is probably a much higher death loss than for smaller lambs. 
- The shepherd assumes that the great big lamb is fine, because it's so big and strong
- The additional amount of colostrum that is needed isn't appreciated
- The ewe has put so much of her metabolic process into feeding that huge lamb in some cases I think it takes longer for her to produce the volume of milk needed
- A significant percentage of great big lambs seem to suffer from some brain damage and aren't that vigorous of eaters
- In the case of birth weight disparities, the smaller twin is frequently more aggressive and is actually getting more colostrum that the huge twin
  • Don Drewry
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Bigiron59

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2016, 01:00:25 pm »
Don , as we "speak" I have returned from the barn. Rams were turned out months ago, as is.case with most families, holiday plans become more convoluted with children being married. Adding that my son is divorced and remarried , and shared custody makes holidays I'm my kids /gkids mode interesting. That meant "our "/ Christmas was celebrated last night 80 miles from my lambing barn.
This year, The hair ewes were exposed for approximately 10 days before my bf ewes. And have a 3 day overlap. Since the Romonov influence in my hair ewes and based on past lambing event,they have about 4 day shorter gest than my bf ewes. So in theory, should be done lambing what bred in that exposure ,just as BF start.
Anyway, the hair ewes are housed in my climate controlled barn. The heat is not turned on, but even at - 2 the other night, water did not freeze .
I had  3 options  . Stay home and miss Christmas with my kids/ gkids. Nope.
Drive home at midnight last night. Nope
Have my chore boy check sheep in our absence. I would rather not have people that do not lamb ewes   check them
So yesterday, had 2 sets of twins around 7.30. I. A barn that was about 40. Ewes are locked in at night.have run of lots during the day,feed and water outside..
 I moved those familes to mixing pen after lambs had nursed mom.  I went toock ewes in barn about 11 am so we could head to Sioux Falls. Of course 1 was in labor. I worked her into a 5 x 5 pen, in my mixing pen, fgggvocked other into drop pen. By this time, ewe had dropped one lamb. I went to check my other pen and feed rams. I can back and number one was nursing,number 2 fell out on his head. I watched this lamb get to his feet and nurse in less than 2 minutes.
Are they tough,yes. I have seen that with my own eyes.  I did a belly bump,decicded ewe was done, offered her a drink,she drank a gallon or so. We left for Sioux fall. We got up this morning, and ate breakfast, ect. We got home at 12 noon. .2 more had lambed this morning.
Would I have done this with BF wether dams? Likley not.
I have always advocated  for  climate controlled barns.  I have not used any heat this year. The ewes locked in generate good amount of heat,if barn is some what size right.
I will move the wether dams to the barn next week, again, likely not need heat,but I have it if I need it.
 But having lambed these gals In 20 below and seeing how fast they get up,made it esy for me to "trust" my ewes to do thier job.Rigid. culling in those ewes has made them what they are.

That being said, the wether dams will be handled the same , as these ewes. Gruop dropped, sent to mixing pens with lambs,after nursing. Jugging only ewes if a problem, or confidence. I do have season hockey tickets. I will jug that  ewe that has multiples just before I leave. ANY female ANY age that has a single and needs me to intervene in any aspect of her rasing a lamb, will be culled.

Last year the hair ewes were lambed  March to avoid the  bitter cold. It still managed to be well below 0 for part of March.
So this year, for numerous reasons, they were exposed for late Dec and early Jan lambing. The ones that do not lamb in this time, will lam. In early March with another gruop.
All ewes that lamb this year, will be in climate controlled barn. But in a low labor set up.gruop housed, no jugs,rigid culling.
From an animal welfare  point, I have decided it's unethical to lamb in below freezing environment.
I can use that in my direct marketing farm to market claim. 
As I age, I find it harder and harder for people to justify why they lamb,in winter ,without a climate controlled facility.  I could and the sheep I have ,have proven they can do it.
But should I do it?
For me ,that is any easy answer.
 Dextrose injections,heat lamps, and all of the other Band-Aids,  are a poor substitute for heat.
All of that effort and resources ,could be better spent managing sheep.  And it is much more pleasant to work in a barn ,that is 35 to 45. Than one that is 10.
 The root cause of most of the problems, are hypothermia. If that lamb "never" gets chilled, you Never have to waste resources dealing with it.
That is how I look at it, and why I would look at Why My ewe had either big or small lambs. Normal  lambs, in a climate controlled environment, will never have any issues.  And it's a pleasure to raise sheep like that. Rigid culling of ewes will also help. If this ewe had a big ,stupid lamb last year, she would be culled.
So I enjoyed a.holiday with my family, and my ewes were working  for me, do the job they are supposed to do. I provided them with a very good working  environment. As should every shepherd. I have worked for some really bad  employers over my lifetime.
I don't want to be that employer for me ewes.
That's my veiw, from the top of the snowbank.😀
  • Shane Kirschten

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2016, 05:10:37 am »
In my opinion heat lambs, lamb coats and even heated barns do very little to prevent hypothermia.  When it's bitter cold, your window to find a lamb that's "cold" is shorter so they help in that way.  BUT, the lamb appears cold because it's not getting enough to eat and if not corrected that lamb is going to die regardless of the outside temperature.

I'm not sure I follow the comparison between IP injections and electrolytes.  I've never had electrolytes drench bring back lambs like an IP injection.  Are people seeing lambs that are flat on their side, body temperature of <95 be saved by warming and an electrolyte injection?  I've never saved one that way but I can save them with an IP injection.  Body temperatures between 95-100 might be saved with electrolyte but I look at it as I can get that lamb on it's feet fastest with an IP injection so why not.
  • Don Drewry
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Bigiron59

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2016, 07:13:43 am »
And since with a climate controlled lambing facility, I have NEVER had to worry about those type. They don't happen. That is my point. Root cause is cold . fix the cold, you fix the problem.Simple
 To many people worrying about how to fix a cold starving lamb ,they found on its side.
Heat your barn, you won't have them. Simple fix.
  • Shane Kirschten

MizLiz

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Re: Newborn acting weird
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 11:04:27 am »
I lost that lamb that morning. Tried the warm water, warm enema. I'll be faster tubing next time. I always feel like I'm either doing too many interventions  or not enough. I watched him nurse a few times but I'm thinking he was just so big he needed more than he was getting. I was tubing a small set of twins also that day so I was also more preoccupied and didn't keep enough of an eye on him. Sucks Cause he was a nice lamb. That ewe is my best milker  and mother too. Guess I'll CIDR her for falls later. I know from being a nurse that large newborn humans are at risk for rapid hypoglycemia so I'm thinking that's what it was.

 How fast should they perk up in the warm water? He didn't seem much better after he was in the tub even though he seemed warmer. 

As far as why he was that big, his mom usually has a good sized set of twins and it looks like this year she just made one big one. All the other lambs by this guy are average. She's just an overachiever I guess.
Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate all the advice and hopefully I won't have this happen again.
Liz
  • Liz Bohan
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