Author Topic: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.  (Read 15224 times)

shadowran

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I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« on: December 24, 2016, 08:17:00 am »
I am seriously thinking about it and the benefits I see are

1 introducing new genetics that I couldn't afford any other way

2 not buying another ram when I don't need one

3 possibly getting some real good ewe lambs and a real good ram lamb
 
4 moving my flock fowrd a little faster

drawbacks are

1. taking a chance on conception rate

2 can I afford it?

3 travel to location I used to not worry about this but ith my health being as bad as it is I kinda to have to

what are your thoughts on it?
  • James Clayton
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raising good lambs for great kids for grand projects

Bosephus

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2016, 08:37:47 am »
We have a small flock and can't afford to buy a ram every couple of years so we have been  lai Inc our ewes and have made huge leaps forward in our breeding program I would talk to some of the techs I know glen Erickson and Tyson rule travel quiet a bit for breeding if they can coordinate you into there schedule it is still very cost effective to have them breed at your farm
  • Peter Tibbits

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2016, 12:53:10 pm »
Pro - access to some trendy rams without having lots of cash.
Also, if the ram does not work out you are out a few lambs without being out a very expensive ram. 
Con- still need a good cleanup ram.

LAI has helped me tremendously in my efforts to better my flock
  • Josh Golob
Raising club lambs and breeding stock in Granger, WA

Bigiron59

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2016, 03:23:38 pm »
The upsides are endless,as long as you dont fall into commom pitfalls..

Its not as easy as sticking in some cidrs. Your feeding program has to be super. Any short fall,  will lead to dissapointment
Not every lamb born,is a keeper. I have oppotunity to see a lot of ai and et lambs in my area. I see hundreds sell at severe discount to run of the mill feedlot type lambs, at sale barn every year.
It takes a STUD EWE to produce a STUD RAM
The more crossed up your ewes are, the less likley a crossed up ram, is going
to make any great ones
That being said, some very good rams are available. But
Figure 300 plus per for semen, drugs and breeding. 50 percent success with frozen
10 ewes. 3 thousand.  And may get nothing. Most can buy a flock changing ram for that and get 3 or 4 years oit of him.
Points to ponder.
ET WORK.  Have seen 1 average sheep, come out of 10 k of work.

As long as the money is "fun money" and not going to hurt, if all lost. Great.

I have donors and recipts.
I budget some every year. Will be looking for semen on 2 specif rams. For et in 17. Semen ,drugs and work will run 2 k.
  • Shane Kirschten

PCrome

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2016, 06:11:18 am »
Merry Christmas!

I think that Shane's numbers are pretty much spot on, and I certainly don't doubt that he and others have improved their flocks with LAI. I haven't done it, because I've felt that the money I would spend on LAI could be better spent on other management. For example, three years ago we had a drought that had us feeding two years of hay in one year. I revoked a bunch of scholarships that year and saved a bunch of ewe lambs out of the ewes I kept, with the result that my average ewe age dropped- a lot. As a bonus, those saved ewe lambs are all at least half sisters and have been a real plus genetically. That cost something in terms of feed and lost sales of a half dozen ewe lambs, but it's the best money I've spent on sheep.

Most people I see doing LAI, and I mean no disrespect to those of you here using it, would be better off spending some extra coin on a stud ram, or on feeding and flushing their ewe flock to advance and shorten their lambing window, or on facilities to improve overall flock health and ease of handling, or on culling harder to improve consistency and predictability. I see a lot of folks with <20 ewes chasing the LAI or ET deal, and it seems like what they wind up with is half their ewes bred, and the rest either screwed up from hormones and procedures or lambing a month after they need to for sales or show.

Again, I absolutely believe that lots of people have used LAI as a way to move their flocks forward, and I believe those here among them. I can certainly see the opportunity it presents, if everything goes right.

Good luck, whatever you decide.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 06:27:01 am by PCrome »
  • Phil Crome

shadowran

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2016, 07:42:29 am »
as far as the back up ram to cover ewes that didn't settle with LAI I have a good one that's putting real good lambs on the ground for me, like I said I am kicking around the ideal around I think it would be a great way to introduce new genetics into my flock without bringing on some one else problems, also the person I am thinking about going with has a higher conception rate than others and is lot cheaper by half or more
  • James Clayton
Proverbs 3:6
raising good lambs for great kids for grand projects

Bigiron59

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2016, 07:59:22 am »
PHIL,  I Concur. I have never Ai any yet. My et foray, has been with ewes/rams I own or leased. I KNOW he put em in there

From a money standpoint, I. Could lease a ram, and ensure lambs. And my et work is. With a ewe. That has produced county, district, state and national winners. With natural service sires,  in mutiple years, with differnt sires. The sire has produced same, and bought him, used him,  and sold him.
A little more likely to produce one.
Like you, I have a developed a consistant set of ewe families. I have always belived in the power of maternal strenght. And as I mature,I do not stray from my bloodlines or my breeding plans. I would likely lease a ram for some coin,before AI to most of the BF rams out there.I will try to secire some semem on 2 specif Dorset rams.
  • Shane Kirschten

Bigiron59

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2016, 08:14:41 am »
Good luck Jim. Your feeding program for at least 3 months prior to breeding,  has to be flawless.Including minerals.immunizations as well.
And your semen has to be good. The people that did my et work,rejected a lot of frozen semen , people had bought and wanted to use.
Dead semen ,will not settle ewes
 If your working a deal on fresh,Odds are much better. The tech is only as good as what he has to work with.
  • Shane Kirschten

Bosephus

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2016, 01:07:16 pm »
I also agree with Shane feed and mineral program has to be spot on for success and I have had many just average lambs out of ai as well but have only saved ewe lambs the were top notch I have gotten 3 to 5 super good ewe lambs each year but have had equil just average ones that being said I am now ai ing keeps this year and hoping for more keeper ewes only the good lord knows but have had a little extra money each year so figured it would be fun trying new genetics but agree with Shane don't go into this thinking it will create super stars out of every lamb and merry Christmas to all of you
  • Peter Tibbits

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2016, 09:38:19 pm »
I have used Viking Genetics for two consecutive years.  May 2015 breeding gave me 4 of 4 pregnant with frozen semen.  May 2016 gave me 5 of 6 pregnant with frozen semen.  Terry Knudsen uses Dr. Tad Thompson for the LAI work.

Four days later in May 2016 I took 4 ewes to Rule's LAI clinic.  None of the four conceived. 

My protocol was the same for both clinics.  Ewes were fed and handled the same.  Is it a gamble?  Yes it is.  But I'm willing to gamble with Viking because the odds are obviously in my favor.  The conception rate that I got was excellent.  90% average between Vikings two clinics.

I'll be breeding again to his ram base when the clinic is held at Modesto Junior College in May 2017. 

I spoke to Terry last week.  He's is running a fantastic price for all his rams.  Frozen semen is $100 per straw.  The insemination cost was about $50 last year.  I'd suggest that anyone who is interested in breeding to some really fantastic rams for a very reasonable price contact Terry.  You can reach him at 812-871-5700. 

What I really like about him is that he is easy to reach by phone and very willing to talk.  Even though I only breed a small number of ewes he still treats me like I am important.  Nice.
  • Laura Overton

Don Drewry

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2016, 11:42:21 pm »
Jim, I used LAI two years ago and have a really nice set of keeper ewes out of that.  Sold a few nice wethers, didn't get a keeper ram.  Last year we didn't use it as I'd bought a new buck.  This year we also didn't use LAI as I bought another new ram.  This coming year I plan to use LAI again.  Penciling out the cost of the rams I want, I think it's going to be cheaper to at least use LAI every other year if not every year.  Most of the lambs that won the shows we sold lambs at were bred by LAI or from the farms that supplied those studs.  It's been proven in other species if  you don't use AI and your competition does, your not going to be a player for long.
  • Don Drewry
Raising Hampshire club lambs and terminal sire breeding stock with EBVs.

Bigiron59

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2016, 08:06:45 am »
Don, I would suggest that if your lambs, produced by your live cover rams, are not winning, your live cover rams are not good enough. I am reading,that your AI lambs win, and your live cover lambs are being beaten by AI lambs.
That suggests to me ,perhaps a different live cover ram is needed. I am not knocking any of your sheep,or your ram selecting skills.

That being said,many "live cover" rams ,never produce anything of merit. I have said that for many years.  And many of the AI ram options are superior rams. Their is no question if that.
I think any progressive program ,will be using et or AI or both.
I tend to concur,that most of my "ram money" will likely be budgeted this way. I can not afford the rams I need ,any other way. At this point ,it is more cost effective to add superior ewes, and  purchase rams in a tube. And many of these crossbred rams ,are not going to produce predictable results anyway.
My observation,is the top level breeders ,and feeders, simply have a better "eye" as to what makes those superior lambs.
And technology ,will never replace that. They also are superior feeders and managers. And most have facilities that are out if the reach of most of us.

I am not telling anyone not to use ,or to use these  options.
It's buyer beware, do your homework, follow directions, attention to detail. All things, many sheep producers ,do not do well.
In the area of LAI and ET, look at how the programs that are making it work, are managed. Two of my friends, have watched me work through my second attempt. Both want to try. And neither  will attempt it themselves.The attention to detail, and time sensitive nature is a commitment,that both know would not work for them.
At least 2 firms , doing this work, have best luck , with ewes housed at their facilities   for at least 60 days prior to work.
As I was doing some paper work, I reviewed Trans Ova  tips for a successful AI and ET program. It is a 90 program,and realistically a year around program, as to feed,mineral ,immunization,and body condition.
They have spent decades building the beef programs. And I based on conversation with producers ,their sheep program has had good success,IF directions are followed.
My observations,is that sheep producers, do not follow directions very well.

But ,I have seen a whole lot of AI lambs get the gate as well.
The ram is only half of the equation.

  • Shane Kirschten

shadowran

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2016, 08:33:32 am »
well since you guys suggested that I have to be on top of my feeding program before LAI is it different than just flushing them for normal breeding with a ram? when I flush for breeding season I feed whole corn and alfalfa and they have lose selenium salt
  • James Clayton
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Bigiron59

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2016, 12:37:40 pm »
most firms are feeding very limited corn. It creates to much internal heat, for optimum embryo survival.  Your ration would be likely low in all minerals with exception of perhaps calcium, and any hay over a month old has limited vits. I am not convinced that any hay,grain rations , has adequate vits, minerals, except during maintenance periods. Any other stage of production, those rations are decidedly lacking, in some area. Some recent work, suggests that mineral/vits mixed with salt, has limited Benefit, if mix is over a couple of weeks old. Many peeps , doing this work are using breeder vitamin pacs such as sure champ, vita ferm ect. I see a couple of places  sell, products especially for this purpose. They run about .25 a day per ewe, so 60 days of that per ewe, will run you 15.00 per head. I am not advocating any, but a though vit/mineral/protein /energy ration , is imperative .   I mix all rations on farm, and mix a ton or so of grain mix at a time. breeding and lactation are not times to scrimp. I am more prone to over supplement during those times, and use 3 different products to ensure high levels of vit,mineral supplementation.    With 150 ewes and at times 300  or more on feed, fresh is not an issue here. Condition score should be at least 2.5 and more likely 3. This is not a time to scrimp on feed, or quality of feed.  And time to achieve that is likely well before beginning cidr insertion. Any prebreeding vaccinations, must be done at least 30 days prior to cidr insertion,as well as deworming, feet trimming, and shearing.

ewes should be moved into the breeding gruop at least 30 days prior to and for at least 30 days after LAI. So that means at least 2 gruops of ewes , for at least 60 days. These ewes ,should be handled and stressed as little as possible, with other ewes. Ewes should be acclimated to working facility, before all of this begins. Ewes will be handled several times.  at least 2 cidrs and 3 depending on protocal.    ET ewes will be run through system many times. Catching one ,"behind a gate" ,or "running one around the pen" ,is not conducive  a high rate of success.
Flushing ewes , is not an option for this. Skinny ewes do not work. They should be at the right condition , at least 30 days prior to ai. And taking those ewes home after AI, and kicking them out with the rest of the flock, is ill advised as well.

I would be contacting others in your area, who have a proven program in doing this, and do exactly , what your TECH says. Not what someone who heard, or what a friend of a friend of a friend, who knows someone, who did this.

Most Techs, have a protocal the works for them,  and will be the best resource. I assume you must be thinking of breeding for fall lambs, so would be making sure all loose ends are tied up, very soon.   As some one mentioned, A couple of firms have attractive pricing, right now.

 I like to use proven rams in my choices, but others are infatuated with the pictures that young rams take. I have seen a lot of "young guns" take a good picture, and they 'aged" pretty bad.  And again, depends on your ewes.  If you got 3 or 4 K burning a hole in your pocket, a round of AI, will extinguish that fire ,pretty effectively.

good luck
And maybe your the guy, that knocks one out of the park, on your first turn at the plate. It does happen.
  • Shane Kirschten

shadowran

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Re: I am kicking around the ideal of A.I.
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2016, 03:50:41 pm »
right now there's no way for me to get custom feed ration mixed for the ewes because the mills around here demand a 4 ton min and it would ruin before I used it all also the expense of that is out for me, I am looking into Highnoons ewe ration to se if I can get it around here
  • James Clayton
Proverbs 3:6
raising good lambs for great kids for grand projects